Well, I'd say you have every right due to the fundamental human right "freedom of religion". It doesn't really make sense to claim a right in the name of God to someone who doesn't believe in him, does it?

Anyway, that being said, while you have every right to express your beliefs and to practice your worship, I have every right to ridicule you for it, as is given to me by the fundamental human right "freedom of speech".

You do have the right to believe in god. God or god or gods. You have the right, but I'm confused. Everyone here knows about this why are we stating obvious facts? Also, do we even have to bring up ridiculing people? The reason that we are given the freedom of religion is so that this sort of things does not happen. What's the difference between me insulting someone because their black or because they are Muslim or Christian? THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.

There are countless of Americans that resent all Middle-Eastern people. There are some more informed people that resent the entirety of Islam and everyone affiliated with the Muslim community. There are some people who are not stupid and realize that there are crazy people everywhere. There are radical Christians as there are radical Muslims. 9/11 was not a conspiracy perpetrated by the entire Muslim community, it was synchronized by a small group of crazy people that called themselves Muslims even though what they were doing went against everything that the religion stands for. Because of this small group of people there is now this shadow of connotations that fall over the Muslim community that may never go away. There are Muslim radicals as there are Christian radicals as there are Atheist radicals. Although, when there is a crazy atheist nobody ever cares to point out the fact that they are atheist because that particular detail means NOTHING. Simply because Johnny knew this one photographer that had two nipples does not mean that all photographers must have two nipples. People must understand this.

So I'm talking about this because you brought up ridiculing him because of his religion. Answer to a question that was not asked but a question that sort of hung in the air for me at least.

Do you really have the right to ridicule him for his religion? Certainly, you have the free will to do so if you wish to. Does this give you the right to? No. No, no, no... NO. No.

You do not in any way have the right to make fun of someone. I don't care if they are fat, ugly, stupid, or smart. I don't care the least bit why you believe that you are superior to this person or why you are making fun of them because that is just wrong. Even though you have been given the ability to inflict pain upon others, you have not been given this ability so that you can use it to please yourself. You have not been given strength to crush the weak or to insult those who believe in something with their entire being. You are wrong to believe that you have been given some sort of right to insult someone. I resent your very existence right now because it is people like you that lessen the value of the entire human race. We are better than animals because we have morals and we have the ability to think and to empathize in a way that animals cannot. Do not put your existence to waste. Do not shame your ancestors and your entire species by stooping to such a low state of being and of thought.

Thank you for understanding!

>>do we even have to bring up ridiculing people? The reason that we are given the freedom of religion is so that this sort of things does not happen.

No, we have freedom of religion so that people are not persecuted for having the supposedly "wrong" religion. It does not save you from me saying: Your faith is ridiculous!

>>What's the difference between me insulting someone because their black or because they are Muslim or Christian? THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.

Well, there is actually a hell of a difference. Noone chose to be black, but everyone living in a free country has the choice to be religious or not. Of course, if you live in one of the islamic countries where the death penalty is given for heresy you don't have much of a choice, which leads us to the next point:

>>9/11 was not a conspiracy perpetrated by the entire Muslim community, it was synchronized by a small group of crazy people that called themselves Muslims even though what they were doing went against everything that the religion stands for.

Islam stands for peace, does it? Have you read the texts? Islam stands for anything BUT peace, it is a shallow and hateful philosphy and it is a miracle that so many muslim people are good and peaceful DESPITE their religion. Look at the countries where islamic law is enforced. They killed a 14 year old girl in Bangladesh with 100 whiplashes for being raped, calling the crime "an affair with a married man".

I see religion as a source of evil, and a thing that, as you coined the phrase, "lessens the value of the entire human race". I could go on explaining why atheism is indeed superior to any religion, because it follows the scientific method, and why the scientific method is the only thing that can actually proof anything, but I'll skip this unless you actually wanna hear about it.

I have one more thing to say though. I ridicule people for having imaginary friends, yes I do. But you resent my very existence for stating my opinion? Talk about high moral ground again. Religion insults everyone in many ways: Heretic, pagan, blasphemer; it threatens you with eternal pain and sorrow, burning in hell if you don't belief in what it teaches. In its name, people have been tortured and murdered, and if anyone draws moral values from scriptures that have facilitated these crimes against humanity instead of his own thoughts, I have, yes, I HAVE the right to ridicule him or her.

Escuse me but are you even a christian! When you go to hell when you die you will find out that believing in God is not crasy! Find your brain now before you lose everything! And i mean it!

One should learn to read ere one strives to learn to type: I'm an atheist. If there is a hell, there are so many scientists in it by now that the place is probably air conditioned when I go there.

To you, dear hellfire proclaiming dovewingtc: My brain resides in my skull; I'm using it on a daily basis, and as confidently as you say I'll burn in hell when my life has ended, I'll say you'll remain an idiot for the rest of yours.

i am sorry i wasnt threatning, that is the truth. God forbiden that you go to hell. But shall you go to heaven. I hope that you know that God is watching every move you make. Be blessed.

and yes i am young and stupid. So have your own beleives i Only believe in God.

And i have every right to!

It is not the truth. I don't have beliefs, I have knowledge or unanswered questions, that is the fundamental difference between religious and non-religious people. Maybe you'll grow out of it and throw of the shackles of belief after all, if you're young there is still hope.

And once and for all: You have every right to believe whatever you want, but as long as you shove it into people's faces I'll have my say, and every right to do so, too.

hmmm... Really? God is my life. I shall never grow out of him.

You condemn yourself to a life with blinders then... I pity you.

I am sorry i CAN SEE THAT YOU NEED FORGIVNESS. I have my own words thank youAnd don't pity me, it makes you look stupid. I am strong in Gods presence, and there i shall stand. If you have anything else to say keep it to your self!

Makes me look stupid, does it? You're the one standing alone and weak in a godless world, and you wont shut me up with your feeble words. But rejoice, I will reply to you no more; speaking to you is a fruitless endeavor.

Stupid. My world isn't Godless. It is full of the one and only God. Now I am starting to think you are a robot., or am I just talking to the computer? You may have your beliefs, and I will have mine. But for now, I think you won't survive.

I know that often people that believe in God do not seem very smart. I know that this person cannot even spell crazy, but this does not mean that there are many intelligent people that believe in God. I am Christian, and yes that is why I capitalize God.

If there is a hell in the manner in which we believe there to be a hell what you say has no basis. In your mind there is no hell, so this does not affect you. There is no way in this case to say "well if what you say is true then I am still fine" because according to dovewingtc's beliefs you are condemned to hell. But you do not believe this so there is no need to worry about that. Let's move on.

Everyone uses their brains and their "heads" every day. I know that you mean that you logically think through things every day to discern what you should believe in. But even regarding logic this is true. You do not know whether or not this person is stupid anyway. Simply because someone cannot spell means that they are less intelligent than you are. Wow you used "ere" in a sentence. Wow you correctly used a semicolon! You do not know why this person does not know how to spell. There is a difference between knowledge and wisdom and intelligence. They are all separate and can be attained without the others. Also one must take into account that this is most likely a kid.

Even if he is stupid I still do not believe you have the right to ridicule him. Even if you do have the right I do not think you should because it isn't right. What you are doing is just as wrong as what dovewingtc is doing, if you have not yet realized. You are pushing your beliefs upon someone else without any proof at all.

If you wish to push your beliefs on someone else use logic, which you seem to believe you have. I really really wish for you to try to convince me that there is no god using logic. I enjoy arguing with people and have never talked to someone (that was intelligent) seriously on the subject of whether or not there was a god. Tell me about how you use the scientific method to prove atheism. I think that this will be interesting. Please, I know you told what's his face that you weren't going to answer him because he couldn't be reasoned with, (although you did not use reason, you put up this paperthin argument that was just as flawed as his as you used literally zero evidence. This is why I'm asking for your supposed proof of the lack of a god.) but I can be reasoned with. Speak to me. I will listen and we can have a debate. I don't want to call it an argument because I do NOT want a flame war. We can try to keep this calm and civilized, because it is the logical thing to do.

Why do so many Catholic priests touch up young boys and then the rest of the church then cover it up?

Why do so many wars begin or are incited by religion?

Why do clergy etc exist in armies?

Why do churches collect money to pay for church roofs, organs, new buildings etc instead of channelling funds to the poor?

Use your head folks and work it out for yourself lol

Now that you say that I relise i was rong to talk back n every way. Yes I am a christain and I am sure God did not like the way I flared up. Thank you for letting me know!

>> Everyone uses their brains and their "heads" every day. I know that you mean that you logically think through things every day to discern what you should believe in. But even regarding logic this is true. You do not know whether or not this person is stupid anyway. Simply because someone cannot spell means that they are less intelligent than you are. Wow you used "ere" in a sentence. Wow you correctly used a semicolon! You do not know why this person does not know how to spell. There is a difference between knowledge and wisdom and intelligence. They are all separate and can be attained without the others. Also one must take into account that this is most likely a kid.

You are right to scold me for the wrong use of the word 'idiot'. I have indeed no proof (though looking at the entirety of what this person posted on the site I think I might claim to have some indication), but used the word because it had more of a ring to it than 'illiterate, unreflected person'. I'm sorry for that, and I'm sorry for sounding so harsh in most of my replies.

>>Even if he is stupid I still do not believe you have the right to ridicule him. Even if you do have the right I do not think you should because it isn't right. What you are doing is just as wrong as what dovewingtc is doing, if you have not yet realized. You are pushing your beliefs upon someone else without any proof at all.

This is where discussions with religious people and me normally come to an end because they do not get one thing. Religion is a faith; Atheism isn't. It's like 'not playing videogames' isn't a hobby, but the lack of one. I'm not trying to push my beliefs on anybody, I'm trying to make them lose faith, because faith is the death of critical thinking; the firm belief in something for which there is no evidence renders a reasoned argument impossible.

Let me give you an example: The origin of life.

I believe that the origin of life dates back to the geological era of Hadean, where the oceans were satiated with carbon dioxide. A process at so-called hydrothermal vents also released copious amount of molecular hydrogen. Carbon dioxide and molecular hydrogen are sufficient for certain kinds of bacteria to grow on. I could go more in depth but and tell you more why it's such a fascinating theory and makes so much sense, but this would need some previous knowledge of biochemistry and I don't know if you already have that or you'd want to invest the time to learn that stuff; If you're interested I'll send you the nature article reviewing it and would be happy to explain more.

This is a belief. I belief this to be true, although I can't be 100% sure. There is strong, reproducible evidence for it though.

A religious person who believes in genesis sees things in another light and I'm sure you're a better judge of that person's idea of how life might have originated. His faith has no evidence, though, and even contradicts things that have been proven a hundred times. If you could get yourself another god and watch him as he creates another world, you could say with conviction: Gods can create worlds. Why hasn't anyone ever done that?

I've heard religious people say that the bible is God's word and thereby proof enough, but there is no proof that it IS God's word. Even progressive christians who say they do not oppose science and accept it to be true tend to only disbelief the Bible where it has been proven wrong. This can't be the answer, though, since if you can believe in a thing, anything, until it is proven to be wrong, it's on the same level as believing in purple unicorns, flying spaghetti monsters and the boogey man.

Let's get to the main topic: God. We'd have to establish a definition of him, though. I'll go with the popular "Allknowing, allmighty" until you specify what kind of God you believe in.

Allmighty disobeys the laws of physics, for example the conservation of energy; If you regard the universe as a closed system, the energy in it remains the same. If you regard God as a part of it, his total energy is therefore limited to what the universe can provide him with, thereby making him maybe quitemighty, but not allmighty. If you regard him as not a part of the universe, each act of his would increase the total energy inside the universe and we'd have proof he existed.

I've heard the argument that God would stand above the laws of physics countless times, but that in itself contradicts them. Everything we have been able to prove abides by these laws. If these laws are false, the new ones would need to explain everything the old did plus what had proven the old ones wrong. Simply to exist outside them doesn't work.

I think I've argued Science vs Religion and how they don't work together quite much now, but the thought of a both allmighty and all knowing being is in itself a paradox. Allmighty would mean that God can change everything according to his will, right? All knowing would mean that God knows about the past, present and future of all mankind, right? If you know about the future, though, how can you change it without making your knowledge untrue? You're either NOT allknowing, or you're a slave to your knowledge and your hands are tied.

I hope to have provided some things to debate now. I don't know what will come of this, because I've been disappointed countless times, to the point of doing little but taunting as you have noticed. There is a quote that says "If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people," and I've had countless indications to this. I'm downright offended whenever I hear someone say "That's what YOU believe, but I know to be true that..." followed by some religious belief, as if a belief founded on the actual lack of evidence could be in any way equal to a well reasoned one of mine. This must sound awefully high-headed to you, but it is the way I think and I say it so you understand my point of view.

Yes, I ridicule religious people. I try not to do it to hurt them, but to make them realize how far fetched their faith is. I don't want to feel superior; I want to make them feel stupid so they feel the need to do better, because even if they are intelligent: an intelligent mind without education is like a fish without water.

I tried writing a reply that covered everything but in the process was frustrated at how immensely long it was and how insufficient it was despite it's length. So I trashed it.

I am going to jump ahead in this argument to the point that all of these arguments because even though in theory it seemed like fun this is going to end up being extremely annoying in the end, because I would eventually have to reply to you or otherwise accept a loss in the argument. So here, I'll try to very briefly answer everything here. Let's go.

Basically, the bible is not to interpreted literally. Otherwise I wouldn't be here arguing with you. http://www.youtube.…

We believe in evolution and any science that you will try to throw in my face, because none of it disproves anything at all. Although the book of Genesis does say that the earth was created in a week, we all know it wasn't and one must take into account the order in which everything was created. Everything was dark and the planet was void (uninhabited), then God said let there be light (the sun was created) then there was a firmament that was created (the atmosphere) and then God separated the waters ((((("The Earth went through a period of catastrophic and intense formation during its earliest beginnings 4.6-4.4 billion years ago. By 3.8 to 4.1 billion years ago, Earth had become a planet with an ATMOSPHERE (not like our atmosphere today) and an OCEAN.")))))) and bam blam created land. So at this point we must assume that God did not actively take part in created land by lifting up the earth from the bottom of the oceans himself, but acted by planning everything from the beginning. I like to see the creation of everything like the creation of a clock, God created everything so that it would be able to go on it's own and so even though he was the one who created it all he wasn't himself in God form there pulling mountains into existence out of nothing. So God then continues to make plants, and then animals and then humans. So everything is in the appropriate order. Even though the creation of animals and humans are only a day or so apart in the bible as we have seen with everything else these days are not real days. It is like how in the bible it says that Noah lived to be 950. That is not humanly possible and especially in times like those when there wasn't medicine. So now that we have sort of cleared up that Catholicism isn't a religion based around fairy tales we will move on.

If you know about the future, though, how can you change it without making your knowledge untrue? According to Catholics God is outside of time. (Funny thing is that I actually watched this hour long episode of the science channel's show Curiosity about whether or not God existed. Steven Hawking ended the episode by saying that God could not exist because before the beginning of everything time did not exist and nothing can exist outside of time, and this made me laugh because this idea that God exists outside of time is old. http://www.talkjesu… Here is a poll asking this question and everyone seems to be in agreement. It is a well known fact) But disregarding this, if you know the future you will know the internal argument you will have with yourself over whether or not to eat that cake or go exercise, and since you are outside of time and see the future you will see in the future how you ate the cake and then realized oh wait I shouldn't have made this cake I should have gone to exercise and then went to go exercise. And so from the very beginning you will go exercise because you already know the outcome of this. An all-knowing being would automatically know what to do every time and would not second guess itself. But this is a silly argument.

There are many facets of science that contradict one another. 'Nuff said.

Although you still have not said anything regarding this way in which you disprove God using the scientific theory. Probably because it does not exist. Basically this argument is going to last a very long time and I'll tell you where we will end up. I am going to lay the basis of my argument which I want YOU to consider. I will try to respond to any of your rebuttles on my arguments here but typing so much of this wore me out.



SO. THIS IS WHAT I WANT YOU TO CONSIDER.

We both know that I cannot prove the existence of God. But you cannot disprove the existence of God. Even if you manage to disprove every religion that has ever existed there is no way to disprove that there is a God. So what are you to believe? Either you are to believe that the origin of everything was nothing or that everything that is present here has always existed or that something created this. There is no choice among these three that we can prove, even though you can prove how this planet was created and how we evolved from primitive forms of life. You cannot prove Atheism. The belief that there is no god. Now I want you to look back further, because I think that this is your problem.

The big bang created everything, but what created the big bang? Nothing? Because this is what you believe in. You must consider that it is just like what I believe in, because it cannot be proven, the same way what I believe in cannot be proven. You are no different from me and there is not proof for either of our arguments so if you choose to continue to respond to me understand that this will never end until one of us chooses to stop.

Please just answer this last question. It would make things so much easier on both of us.

SO THIS IS WHAT I WANT YOU TO CONSIDER.

I believe this universe was created by a banana. I can not prove this but you can't disprove this either.

This argument will go on until one of us gives in.

Your idea that the universe was created by a banana is just as out there as the idea that it was created by absolutely nothing. This goes against all of the laws of physics that we have been taught since we were children. Something cannot come from nothing, right?

So stupid man a banana? Really?

I will not answer your message with other words for this can cause an argument..

Wrong, go research black hole decay as an example. You should question what you're taught more.

There is no God. Believe in the almighty Banana or upon your death you will spend eternity in the valley of the gooseberry.

you are stupid! Banana? Bananas wilt and turn brown.They have fruit flies in it but you just don't know it. Bananas are easily chopped in half or smashed. God is not. you are acting like a kid except worse.Your fantasy is as stupid and foolish.

I'm talking about the almighty banana. Other bananas were merely made in the same shape as the almighty fruit.

You started this thread asking that people do not judge believers and you are calling me stupid for my own beliefs!

The almighty banana is just as real as your god. She saves as many people from starvation, she allows as many children to be orphaned. She lets as many people rape and molest others.

Alas she hasn't caused any wars yet but give it time :)

Is your fantasy better than mine?

I think that you don't understand the fact that even if there was a perfect religion that revolved around the belief in a god that is actually real (let's just pretend that there is a real god that created everything really just wants the best for us) that violence coming from this religion would be inescapable.This God had the choice of either creating a race of creatures that would operate in perfect harmony, but had no choice in what they were to do, or a race of creatures that were given free will. Even though these creatures were guided since the beginning of time and even though he tried his best to help them without impeding on their free will it is impossible to stop wars and violence without doing so.

It is important to realize that the only reason religions cause wars are because of those that worship/follow those religions. Humans. Although it's difficult to accept, humans are horribly flawed selfish beings that do things that I wish I could say we didn't.

Also I would like to know what black hole decay has to do with the fact that what you really believe in has no basis. Give me proof that I am wrong, or that you are right. Anything. Your sardonic banana jokes aren't welcome, and you can just ignore dovewingtc. He/she is the same person who made a post about what to do when someone tells you that they like you. I'm pretty sure he/she is still in middle school, if not still in elementary school.

I agree that humans create wars but what kind of God would create such a beast? Maybe we just evolved and God doesn't exist?

Black hole decay was to counter the comment you can't create something out of nothing. Matter and anti-matter particles appear and disappear all the time. Stick it on the event horizon of a black hole and you have black hole decay + matter appearing out of nowhere, eg something out of nothing.

>> Steven Hawking ended the episode by saying that God could not exist because before the beginning of everything time did not exist and nothing can exist outside of time, and this made me laugh because this idea that God exists outside of time is old. http://www.talkje... Here is a poll asking this question and everyone seems to be in agreement. It is a well known fact.

Just because many people believe in a thing doesn't make it a fact, and just because an idea is old doesn't mean it is good. Existing outside of time does not abide by the laws of physics, and not abiding by them is contradictory to them, which explains why Religion and Science don't work together.

>>There are many facets of science that contradict one another. 'Nuff said.

Show me one which isn't being researched. E.G the wave/particle dualism of light is yet unresolved, but physicists all around the globe try to solve it, because that's what you do: If something doesn't make sense, you do research. What religion does is propose that if you believe hard enough in something it doesn't matter that it doesn't make any sense. Way to solve a problem...

The thing about the scientificy is that a scientist doesn't believe in something unless he has something backing it up. If someone shows him something contradictory, he stops believing in the thing and tries to work out something new. You can't disprove God as well as you can't disprove the almighty Banana, but this fact alone isn't reason enough to believe in either. Additinally, a God does not solve the problem you pointed out with the big bang: If you need a creator for the big bang, you need a creator for God. If you can't explain the development of complexity from simplicity, how can the existence of something as complex as a God be a solution to the problem?

>>You are no different from me and there is not proof for either of our arguments so if you choose to continue to respond to me understand that this will never end until one of us chooses to stop.

This is pretty much the outcome as I expected it. I've displayed enough proof why in a world with laws of nature a God does not make sense and is indeed unneccesary to explain things, because the whole concept does not explain a thing, yet you say we are no different because I can't explain every last part of how this universe came into existence.

It also shows that you intend not to change your views. You will bring up or even develop new ways to justify God not abiding to the laws of nature, because you WANT to believe. It is an important part of you and you wouldn't want to miss it. I can empathize with that; it must be calming to believe that things happen for a reason and that your existence isn't over after you die.

If you'd allow yourself to doubt, you'd find the evidence you need, but you don't. Since you're an intelligent man and probably don't just listen to Fox News, I wont be able to make you doubt. If the things that happen on this planet don't make you doubt, I wont, but I'll tell you one thing: If someone ever actually proves there is a God, I'll believe in him. Yes, I will; but I'll hate his guts the way I have never hated anyone before, and I'll declare war on anyone who says he's a good God.

Since there isn't a God though, we can make peace and end this conversation if you like. As you said, it wont lead anywhere and religiousness is just a flaw among many a person can have. I have close friends who are religious, too, and you seem like an honestly good person to me.

Okay, I'll end it with this comment. This is not a rebuttal, just a bit of an explanation. The reason that I still believe in God is really because of the circumstantial evidence that he exists that surrounds me and my life. Yes, I will admit that I will most likely argue his existence to my grave as Christopher Columbus argued with conviction that he had found a western route to India, even after having stepping foot on America four separate times. I do know that I really do have an urge to believe, but this is something that you probably wouldn't be able to understand unless you had lived my life.

Also, since you called me an "intelligent man", I thought I'd clear things up by saying that I'm 16 years old. I've been called "above average" but I think that the average is too low to consider that anything special. So you could say I'm intelligent, but I'm most definitely not a man. Just letting you know.

kaikaikaikaikai, perhaps the almighty Banana created God lol

I'm astounded that none of you who have responded have gotten the joke that the banana is simply an extreme example of how we come to beleive whatever it is that we believe. Both the "scientists' and the "religionists" have come to their sets of beliefs by absolute blind faith. It is equally faith to believe in science or to believe in God or some god. It is also faith to believe in reincarnation or karma. Ultimately, you choose what to believe in and in the end we only find out who was right/wrong after we die IF we maintain consciousness at that TIME.

I'm sorry but religious belief is not equal to scientific knowledge. By asserting that, you are reducing both to something lesser.

If you truly believe that scientific knowledge is so insubstantial, I suggest you try and jump in front of a train while believing furiously that physics is just a subjective value.

Tell me what happens.

As for religion, its myths aren't grounded on empirical inquiry, but it has served as a framework for ethics, art, philosophy, knowledge and imagination and law for centuries. Equating it to belief in a banana is like saying belief in Santa Claus is a as valid as belief in the law. Both are entirely subjective and imaginary, but I'm sure you'll agree one has more impact on society than the other.

Wrong. When antimatter and matter collide, it gives off a gamma ray, energy, convertible to mass again.....not nothing. Only God can make something from nothing, which he did. And here we are with the life purpose of glorifying His name.

Well, agreed that these particles are being created from energy from somewhere so yeah, not really out of nothing so I confess my statement was wrong.

Now, your statement "Only God can create something out of nothing". You cannot prove this to be true and yet you state it as a fact. You believe it to be true and you represent it as being true in the same way that were you alive in the 15th century you would be telling me the world was flat and the sun and planets revolved around us.

Man created God in his image.This sentence is often quoted incorrectly.